Engine wants to run 230 degrees???

Water pump, hoses, fan, and radiator & A/C

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Re: Engine wants to run 230 degrees???

Postby FirstGenThree » Tue Aug 27, 2013 6:01 pm

One simple thing to try would be removing the condenser if it is not in use to unblock the radiator and note the results.

Second you haven't stated when this runs hot, so I presume all or most of the time. If it runs 230 idling and or cruising down the road at 40 mph then I think the dcr is out the window. I hope we all agree that there's manifold vacuum while cruising down the road at part throttle. So if there IS, then your dcr is more like 3:1 - 4:1 or so depending on throttle position, and thats definitely low enough to not overheat. If it only runs hot after a full throttle pull from 20-70, then I would personally swap a radiator before a cam due to simplicity.
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Re: Engine wants to run 230 degrees???

Postby Rickracer » Tue Aug 27, 2013 6:46 pm

Neither rpms nor load change DCR, it is a constant, just like static compression ratio, (with a given camshaft), unless you have variable valve timing.
Volumetric efficiency does not change DCR, it is what it is because the cam, (closing of the intake valve) changes the effective swept volume of the cylinder. :wink:
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Re: Engine wants to run 230 degrees???

Postby Memphis » Tue Aug 27, 2013 6:53 pm

FirstGenThree wrote:One simple thing to try would be removing the condenser if it is not in use to unblock the radiator and note the results.

Second you haven't stated when this runs hot, so I presume all or most of the time. If it runs 230 idling and or cruising down the road at 40 mph then I think the dcr is out the window. I hope we all agree that there's manifold vacuum while cruising down the road at part throttle. So if there IS, then your dcr is more like 3:1 - 4:1 or so depending on throttle position, and thats definitely low enough to not overheat. If it only runs hot after a full throttle pull from 20-70, then I would personally swap a radiator before a cam due to simplicity.

I'm limited to how much and how far I can drive it because of the open headers. Before any changes to help the temps:

You start the engine and the temperature climbs really fast I mean it took about 5-6 miles of driving at 60-70 mph to hit 200 degrees then it just kept creeping up to 230 then finally leveled around 238 degrees on a 15-20 mile cruise between 45-70 mph.

Switched to the 100LL, set the timing both initial and total, slowed the curve down some, went one heat range colder on the plugs, and richened the carb 8%. It will start and idle for a good 10-15 minutes and the temp gets to around 180 degrees. I drove it this weekend to pick up my daughter and stop by the parts store, driving +- 25-45 miles an hour in town NO WOT stuff period and it got up to 217-220 degrees holding pretty steady. Cruising or constant motion doesn't seem to help cool it much if any better.

Since the lines are not hooked up to the condenser yet I can pull it and see if there's any difference in the cooling. It's a fairly easy test to see if there's an airflow restriction. As far as the option of an aftermarket aluminum radiator it will be an involved swap because I still want to maintain the AC. I'm already cramped really tight between the power steering pulley center and cooling fan motor. The thickness of the radiator has to be checked closely.

It pulls a ton of air through the radiator already, it's possible the radiator is just too small. The test will help narrow the possibilities. Thanks for the feedback! JD
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Re: Engine wants to run 230 degrees???

Postby Memphis » Tue Aug 27, 2013 7:07 pm

FirstGenThree wrote:I still think it would be wise to do a compression test and see what kinda of cylinder pressure your engine is actually building. I know many online automotive calculators are quite accurate but the way you're talking your engine is cranking at 300psi. If it does actually crank north of 220-240 psi, then maybe think about a cam swap. If it ends up at 190, then don't waste your money and time. There's a reason the timing changes and 100 octane fuel didn't have an effect on it.
It may also be worthwhile to warm it up to temp, then douche the radiator with a garden hose for a couple minutes while monitoring temps to eliminate the radiator and fan inadequacies from the equation, just to see what your thermostat is regulating the coolant at.

If you spray the radiator while the engine and fans are running it will blow water everywhere! I mean it will pull water through the radiator like crazy and blow it everywhere. Been there and done that trying to flush coolant out of the radiator fins after the coolant overflowed with the cap off. JD
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Re: Engine wants to run 230 degrees???

Postby douche_mcgee » Tue Aug 27, 2013 8:47 pm

Rickracer wrote:Neither rpms nor load change DCR, it is a constant, just like static compression ratio, (with a given camshaft), unless you have variable valve timing.
Volumetric efficiency does not change DCR, it is what it is because the cam, (closing of the intake valve) changes the effective swept volume of the cylinder. :wink:


Wrong.

DCR is calculated on 100% of the cylinder volume. If you can't fill the cylinder 100% (ie. less than 100% VE) then the DCR calculation is incorrect.
DCR is calculated on the assumption there is 100% VE.

To add to it, the throttle blade does effect vacuum and therefore it effects VE which would effect the real time DCR (aka cylinder pressure).

DCR is not fixed, just the calculation because of all the unknowns. It is a fixed calculation to give a look into what is going on at high RPM/peak performance.
I am pointing out that this is not a race motor or a boosted setup so taking the straight across DCR in this situation shouldn't alarm the OP.
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Re: Engine wants to run 230 degrees???

Postby Rickracer » Wed Aug 28, 2013 6:16 am

Now you're not talking about DCR, you're talking about "effective cylinder pressure", WAAY more variables involved. DCR is a simple tool to help determine whether a motor will live with a certain octane of fuel, it is NOT the end all, be all, answer. Aluminum heads, zero deck height, Fastburn chambers, longer rods, (and LOTS of other little details) will determine how far above 8.0 DCR you can go on pump gas. I agree with you that a bigger radiator would help immensely. The best example I can give is what I run in my own truck, a 19x31 Be-Cool aluminum radiator, with the Intrepid fan setup. It has an A/C condensor in front of it, as well as a HUGE trans cooler, and never exceeds 190°. My DCR is 8.2, and it runs poorly on 89 octane, and great on 93. 8)
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Re: Engine wants to run 230 degrees???

Postby douche_mcgee » Wed Aug 28, 2013 7:23 am

The definition of dynamic is: 1. (of a process or system) characterized by constant change, activity, or progress.

If you knew what you were talking about you might understand that the effective cylinder pressure is how you measure the real time DCR.


This is why it has been advised to check his cylinder pressures to find out if the DCR is actually too high for his setup.
Using the calc, again only gives the max DCR. It does not account for poor flowing heads, carbon build up... etc...
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Re: Engine wants to run 230 degrees???

Postby Memphis » Wed Aug 28, 2013 8:42 am

douche_mcgee wrote:The definition of dynamic is: 1. (of a process or system) characterized by constant change, activity, or progress.

If you knew what you were talking about you might understand that the effective cylinder pressure is how you measure the real time DCR.


This is why it has been advised to check his cylinder pressures to find out if the DCR is actually too high for his setup.
Using the calc, again only gives the max DCR. It does not account for poor flowing heads, carbon build up... etc...

OK, if I run a compression test how much cylinder pressure is too much for 87-89 octane? I don't even want to run "Premium" in this thing the goal was to run cheap gas in a daily driver. When I used the two different calculators it showed cylinder pressures up to +- 160-165 psi could run on 91-93 octane, "Iron heads", but for the cheap stuff IIRC it was much lower in the 145-155 psi range??? Does this sound correct? JD

In my combo "IF" it actually had a DCR of 8.99-1 the dynamic cranking compression would be 184.78 psi.
In my combo "IF" it actually had a DCR of 8.77-1 the dynamic cranking compression would be 179.00 psi.

At a DCR of 7.53-1 the dynamic cranking compression would be 146.93 psi. This should work on cheap gas, so I hope it shows around 145-150 psi... JD
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Re: Engine wants to run 230 degrees???

Postby Rickracer » Wed Aug 28, 2013 11:58 am

I've seen 185 cranking compression on some bone stock TBI motors, (which have ESC, knock sensors, and fairly precise fuel control), but for what you're doing, I'd feel safe at 155~165.
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Re: Engine wants to run 230 degrees???

Postby Memphis » Wed Aug 28, 2013 5:29 pm

Memphis wrote:
douche_mcgee wrote:The definition of dynamic is: 1. (of a process or system) characterized by constant change, activity, or progress.

If you knew what you were talking about you might understand that the effective cylinder pressure is how you measure the real time DCR.


This is why it has been advised to check his cylinder pressures to find out if the DCR is actually too high for his setup.
Using the calc, again only gives the max DCR. It does not account for poor flowing heads, carbon build up... etc...

OK, if I run a compression test how much cylinder pressure is too much for 87-89 octane? I don't even want to run "Premium" in this thing the goal was to run cheap gas in a daily driver. When I used the two different calculators it showed cylinder pressures up to +- 160-165 psi could run on 91-93 octane, "Iron heads", but for the cheap stuff IIRC it was much lower in the 145-155 psi range??? Does this sound correct? JD

In my combo "IF" it actually had a DCR of 8.99-1 the dynamic cranking compression would be 184.78 psi.
In my combo "IF" it actually had a DCR of 8.77-1 the dynamic cranking compression would be 179.00 psi.

At a DCR of 7.53-1 the dynamic cranking compression would be 146.93 psi. This should work on cheap gas, so I hope it shows around 145-150 psi... JD


Rickracer wrote:I've seen 185 cranking compression on some bone stock TBI motors, (which have ESC, knock sensors, and fairly precise fuel control), but for what you're doing, I'd feel safe at 155~165.


OK I ran a "Cranking compression Test" this afternoon!!!
Engine warm @180 degrees tested cylinder #2... It's dead on 150 PSI and steady. It jumps the gauge in 3 strokes to a solid 150 psi. I'd say the issue has to be either the fans still aren't turning on HIGH, the radiator is too small, or a combination of the two!!!!

I pulled the #2 plug and the color is looking much better since richening the cruise/power by 8%. I noticed a slight off idle stumble so I moved the accelerator pump arm to the top position increasing the pump shot which seems to have helped.

On previous cruises I noticed what I felt was a slight surge at steady cruise RPM's so I'm pulling the 4 hg yellow springs out and going to try the 5 hg orange step up springs. It may end up needing the 7 hg springs but I'm going to do it one step at a time.

I have the parts to further richen the carb 12% on the primaries for the cruise/power and 8% on the secondary side. I plan on doing it to see how it responds. I believe this #1406 carb was WAY LEAN from the factory for this engine.

Todays #2 sparkplug:
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The first plug from break in before any richening of the carb:
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Re: Engine wants to run 230 degrees???

Postby FirstGenThree » Wed Aug 28, 2013 9:27 pm

Yea, that bottom plug pic looks like my tbi engine- Lean and Mean!, minus the mean lol. Glad to see the results of the compression test, I certainly hope that's low enough for pump gas. There shouldn't be much restriction from the heads or carb etc, at cranking rpm. If they held back VE at 300 rpm you'd have bigger problems to worry about! :mrgreen:
If you were to hose down the radiator with water you would want to remove a mechanical fan, or disable an electric - though it shouldn't even come on, the waters cooling effect would replace that of air- to a much greater extent.
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Re: Engine wants to run 230 degrees???

Postby Memphis » Thu Aug 29, 2013 7:10 am

THE INTREPID FANS ARE STILL NOT COMING ON HIGH!!! I drove it up to Andys shop to check the function of the cooling fans, make a plan for modifying the crossmember, and richen the carb more.

Andy tested the High/Low by pulling the inline fuse for each and found there is NO HIGH! I had verified both relays were clicking on by exciting the A/C override for both relays but there's an issue with one of the temperature units. Clearly a HUGE part of the overheating issue is the fans aren't hitting the higher RPM needed to cool the engine. It's not to say I won't need a larger radiator too once A/C is thrown in the mix. I will have to play with the wiring and find a way to get High Speed on the fans. I suspect the temp unit in the head may be faulty because of the excess heat it sees being so close the #1 header tube. I'll verify my theory, may run my LOW speed on a direct ignition power through the exciter then run the HIGH SPEED by the temp unit/relay coming from my thermostat housing. I will make triple sure I'm getting the highest speed possible.
NOTE: Andy decided I did not have enough grounds between the firewall, engine, frame, and core support!!! Also the existing grounds I have are way to small to even allow both fans to achieve the HIGH amperage for Max flow. I better start with all the upgraded GROUND WIRES and go from there!!!

I richened the carb 12% on the cruise/power, 8% on the secondaries, installed the "Orange" 5hg step up springs in the #1406 E-Carb. I'd say it has a bad off idle stumble now when you ease into the throttle. The Orange springs help clear the cruise range between 1100-1500 rpm's but now the surging has moved to 1800 rpm's but clears at 2000 rpm's. I suspect the step up springs will need to go further to the 7 hg setup to clear the issue. I tried TWO WOT tests and it basically bogged then pulled through but not cleanly and felt like it was being held back pretty badly. I was not happy with the way it responded to WOT since it was not clean and was slow to climb RPM's in my opinion. I shifted @5000 rpm's and it did spin the 1-2 & 2-3 shifts but I wasn't impressed it's far from optimal.

We have a plan to get the crossmember done and get the exhaust on it but not sure when we'll have time. I was hoping to have the exhaust on by Sat when my brother and sister come to town but I don't know maybe. JD
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Re: Engine wants to run 230 degrees???

Postby prostreet94s10 » Thu Aug 29, 2013 9:28 am

I'm glad we were able to find the fan problem. :boobies: We will get on the x member first thing sat morning if not before to try to get it done in time. Don't get in a hurry now it only been in the making for 2 years now! :lol: :lol:
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Re: Engine wants to run 230 degrees???

Postby Memphis » Thu Aug 29, 2013 9:36 pm

I have the 2000 Intrepid fan set up. The fans have a 4 wire connector:
Dark Green-Low
Yellow-High
Black-Ground
Black-Ground

The issue is both my "Fans" DO NOT work on low speed. If you power the low speed only the Left fan comes on. If you send power/ground to the High side the "Other" fan comes on as the auxiliary. Both fans running at a constant speed but NOT both fans with different rpm's or output.

Did they give me the wrong fans? I thought the Intrepid fans were suppose to both run on Low and High but with a higher RPM for increased output on High. I know for sure the fans I have are NOT in series with each other in any way. One fan is Low and both is High.
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Re: Engine wants to run 230 degrees???

Postby Memphis » Fri Aug 30, 2013 12:40 am

UPDATE!!!

I read through all the "Intrepid Fan" posts paying particular attention to the electric motors. Each fan has a High and Low verified by each having one Yellow and one Green wires to each motor. So when they say both fans run together for both High and Low it is true. As a simple TEST, I connected directly to the pig tail from the cooling fans grounding both "Black" wires directly to the negative post on the battery. I then ran a jumper wire from the positive post on the battery and validated the High and Low with both fans running by touching each motor lead then both together! Once I new the fans were dual stage I just had to work on correcting the wiring. NOTE: I NEVER had High speed because now that I've seen it there is a BIG difference!!! :foilhat:

My issue was with the wiring diagram associated with the Derale fan controllers. Because both motors must be grounded AT ALL TIMES, this is a problem when following the wiring diagram with the controllers since they "Were" originally set up as a "Ground" activated relay. The way they wanted it wired never allowed both motors to be grounded while receiving power to the different speeds.

I think I have it figured out, I'll be able to verify it tomorrow. I kept my relays setup the same in regards to Ignition power, A/C override, and temp unit activation. What I changed is now I'm running the relays as POWER in POWER out with a 30amp inline fuse to each motor speed. The two GROUNDS from the motors get solidly grounded at all times. Odd observation: The ground wires from the fans are only 14ga as oem factory, seems small. If my theory works out the relays will power the already grounded motors and will be protected by the inline fuse.

As we observed the Derale wiring is possibly dangerous because they had the fuses inline on the ground wires, if something had shorted or grounded out on the power side there would be no safety fuse/link built in to blow.

All I have left is to ground the two motors. I plan on adding a few extra grounds around the engine bay and frame to be safe. Any and all feedback is great! JD
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Re: Engine wants to run 230 degrees???

Postby Memphis » Fri Aug 30, 2013 12:50 am

Oh, I also decided to return the carb to the 8% richer on the cruise/power, returned the secondaries to the factory jetting, put the accelerator pump arm in the bottom hole closer to the carb body and changed to the 7hg "Pink" step of springs. I plan on lowering the fuel pressure from 6# to 5# to avoid any of the issues I read about with the Edelbrock floats. I haven't been able to test drive it yet since I was working on the cooling fan situation. JD

#1406 Tune:
Primary jet .098
Secondary jet .095
Rods .073/.042 iirc
Pink step-up springs 7hg

The air/fuel mixture screws are set for a lean best idle plus 1/4 turn which turns out to be 1 3/4 turns from lightly seated on this engine. The engine pulls 15# of vacuum at 800-850 rpm idle. JD
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Re: Engine wants to run 230 degrees???

Postby Memphis » Fri Aug 30, 2013 1:02 am

prostreet94s10 wrote:I'm glad we were able to find the fan problem. :boobies: We will get on the x member first thing sat morning if not before to try to get it done in time. Don't get in a hurry now it only been in the making for 2 years now! :lol: :lol:

Andy was right I was wrong I owe him $20... I'm more than happy to be wrong so glad to be on the right track!!! :mrgreen:
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Re: Engine wants to run 230 degrees???

Postby Rickracer » Fri Aug 30, 2013 6:42 am

No wonder you were having problems. I always use simple temp switches (Summit 890017 Low/890018 High), with my own relays and wiring. 8)
What did you decide to do for a cross member?
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Re: Engine wants to run 230 degrees???

Postby Memphis » Fri Aug 30, 2013 8:06 am

Rickracer wrote:No wonder you were having problems. I always use simple temp switches (Summit 890017 Low/890018 High), with my own relays and wiring. 8)
What did you decide to do for a cross member?

The "Plan" is to use thick wall 4" inside diameter pipe sections graphed into the crossmember directly in line with the header collectors. I picked up two sections 6" long of 4" I.D. pipe with .2236 thick walls.

It's pretty busy at Andy's new shop so we're planning to work on the crossmember and exhaust Saturday morning. I picked up two 7' 6" sticks of heavy wall 2 1/2" pipe yesterday; the exhaust will have to start dumped at the rearend until I can get an appointment to fab some form of tail pipes. I would like to have full length exhaust to cut down on the interior noise.

Trying Magnaflow mufflers on this build: Long oval case 18" overall 24" -2 1/2"
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Re: Engine wants to run 230 degrees???

Postby FirstGenThree » Fri Aug 30, 2013 6:23 pm

Those mufflers should sound nice, they may be a bit quiet at first depending on your expectations but run them for a month or two..
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